Theosophical view about Wicca?

[Lady Line]

Hello, dear new friends! I'm new here and it's my first post.

First I want to say that I've grown up hearing about Theosophy and I've been part of Eubiose (a Theosophical society from Brazil) when younger. So I tend to base my life on these teachings.

Well, but I'm completely attracted by Wicca. But at the same time I have some major questions about this religion that will make me know it's true nature.

First I want to know what is the Theosophical view about Wicca, if it's a religion that deals with White or Black magic and it's real purposes. Second, I want to know what were the real intentions of Gerald Gardner when bringing to light this religion. And there's something more that is strange: during their Great Rite, the High Priest and the High Priestess pratice the "Hieros Gamos" or sacred marriage. Folowing H. P. Blavatsky teachings she would consider it regular sex magic ( Black magic) or a pure representation of the creation?

Please, I really need these answers, I can't rest while I don't have them!

 

Thank you so much!

          Lady Line

[Joe Fulton]

To start off, this site is more about exploration than trying to enforce a set of dogmas, etc.  We want you to explore the hidden abilities and possibilities within and around you and and bring back what you learn and share with the rest of us.  We're here to learn, too!

We have many Wiccans on board and I have personally promoted efforts by those involved with Wicca.

So, to HPB.  She basically regarded Wicca and sex magic as a bad thing, a form of black magic, especially in her later writings.  One can't waffle about that, but then again HPB was a mixed bag, especially when she was younger, and there were lots of stories about her goings on.  Now whether any supposed activities involved magical rites and ritual there is little to no documentation one way or the other. Anyone with better insight is free to comment.

However, life is not a black and white affair and the history of the TS shows that there was a lot of interaction between members of the TS, the Golden Dawn and the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor.  The Esoteric School of Theosophy was founded as a reaction to these other organizations coming up with practical schools of magic and occultism, and since the ES was based on specific yoga teachings it tended to be a bit thoretical and quasi-monastic.  If you have access, see Vol. 12 of HPB's Collected Writings.

Personally, it's a matter of balance.  Anything that is good can be made bad by excess or by using it as a tool or weapon to harm others.  I think Eliphas Levi had something to say about that.

Have fun!

Joe

 

[Michael A. Williams]

Hi, Lady Line, and welcome to Theosophy.Net.

I don't know the official view of Theosophy towards Wicca, and frankly, I wouldn't worry about it. I've been involved with "nature" religions, as it were, in the past, and have known, and still know, people in the Wicca tradition. They are among the finest folks I've ever met, both professionally and personally. They are all into "White Magic(k)," not "Black Magic(k)."

I've never known a Wicca group to actually physically perform the "Hieros Gamos" in group ceremony, except in symbolic form. It is always in light of the "representation of creation," as you put it, and not any "Black Magic(k)."

It must be remembered that HPB and the main founders of Theosophy, in spite of their advanced thinking in many areas, were essentially Victorian in their outlook on sexual matters. I don't know of any sane person who would look to them for guidance in this area in today's world.

As for Gerald Gardner, I familiar with his history. Like all founders of "movements," he's controversial, but not an "evil" person. I personally think his motives were sincere and certainly "walked his talk," and not just theorized about it. Perhaps you should do  your own research on him, as there is plenty of material on him on the Web.

Those are my views. Perhaps others will share theirs.

 

 

[Joe Fulton]

Well put, Michael.  I wish I would have said that :)

[Michael A. Williams]

Thanks, and it was good you pointed out the inter-active relationship between the Theosophical Society, The Golden Dawn and Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor in the early days of the TS.

[David Melik]

I do not think Wicca even existed (publicly) in HPB's lifetime. As far as I know, it evolved from Golden Dawn, which evolved from Theosophy.

[Michael A. Williams]

David, I must respectfully disagree with your historical assessment of Wicca, as far as my knowledge of the situation goes. Although you do have a general drift there.

It's true, in the early days, a number of people were members of both the Theosophical Society and The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. There was an inter-action between the two groups, but the details seem to be difficult to track down. The British Occultist, Kenneth Grant, maintained that the GD was the secret inner circle of the TS. Others have said it was the Esoteric Society(ES) that was the inner circle of the TS. Perhaps both were at separate time periods.

Whatever the case, the Golden Dawn used Freemasonry and Roscrusianism as inspirations, as did the TS, but also made extensive use of old medieval grimoires, and the ceremoninal magick tradition. The TS did not.

Whether the GD "evolved" from the TS or or just had some similar interests in the beginning is a matter of interpretation. It's doubtful that any of the modern Golden Dawn Lodges have Blavatsky or any TS literature on their recommended reading list to neophytes.

The modern Wicca movement was literally started by Gerald Gardner in the 1940's. To make a complex story short, Gardner was initiated by a pre-Christian, pagan, witch cult, the "New Forest Coven," in England in 1939. There is controversy surrounding this New Forest Coven. Orthodox historians claimed that Gardner made up the coven, but subsequent research by Independent scholars showed it was real. The coven claimed to be following a paganism of ancient Western Europe. The actual origins of the coven are still debated, even by believers and practitioners of Wicca.

Gerald Gardner did add to whatever he had learned from the New Forest Coven elements of ceremonial magick, old grimoires and some ideas from the practices and theories of his personal friend, Alistair Crowley. This is probably where the notion that Wicca sprang from the Golden Dawn originated, as Crowley himself was once a member of the GD.

[Truth Collins]

Hey Joe,

 

I was wondering what you meant by specific yoga teachings?  Is it a reference to a yoga tradition in particular or to the general idea of it being similar to yoga?

Joe Fulton said:

 "...and since the ES was based on specific yoga teachings it tended to be a bit thoretical and quasi-monastic.  If you have access, see Vol. 12 of HPB's Collected Writings."

 

[Joe Fulton]

Yes, the teaching as mentioned in Vol. 12 of the Collected Writings was Raja Yoga.  Now as to what specific flavor of Raja Yoga that (to the best of my knowledge) was never made clear.  The reason I mention that is, if you recall the famous debate between HPB and T. Subba Row regarding the principles.  Subba Row was arguing from the point of Taraka Raja Yoga, so I am assuming a specific Raja Yoga tradition, which implies others, of which there are many.  Vivekananda and others wrote about Raja Yoga and many schools and sects use the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali as their basis.

So Truth, that question can go in lots of directions and opens up a world of possibilities for those who are interested, as most everything in theosophy, if there was only the curiosity to ask the "next" question.

[Truth Collins]

Thank you all for your explanations.  In this regards, I found the wikipedia entry on the New Forest Coven of interest, in which there was some reference to associated individuals being theosophists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven

 

"Meanwhile, he met a group of people within the Fellowship who claimed to have been involved in a form of Freemasonry known as Co-Masonry, who informed him that they had moved to the area where they had joined the Rosicrucian Order when their friend and fellow Co-Mason, Mabel Besant-Scott, had done so.^[13] The researcher Philip Heselton identified two of these individuals as Ernest and Susie Mason, a brother and sister couple who had in prior decades been involved in a variety of occult groups, including Co-Masonry and Theosophy, and who had recently moved to the area from Southampton.

 

...

 

"This group claimed to have known Gardner from a past life, and in September 1939, revealed to him that they were members of a Witches' coven, and then initiated him into Wicca in a ritual which took place in one of the homes owned by Dorothy Clutterbuck.^[

 

...

 

"The Mason family

The Mason family, researched by Heselton, lived in Southampton for a period of over 150 years. One of Heselton's informants described Ernie in particular and the family in general, as 'witches', adding that Ernie, who he had known for several years, had had to give up because he found the rituals too strenuous.^[19] Rosetta was a keen follower of Anthroposophy; Susie was a Co-Freemason and Theosophist, and Ernie, who claimed to have been fully aware from the moment of his birth, was an enthusiastic esotericist and taught mental exercises in the Crotona Fellowship. Their father George Miles Mason, an optician and astronomer, had built a meeting hall in Southampton which seems to have been used for the meetings of various esoteric groups, including Co-Freemasonry. ..."

 

So perhaps the area had a history of open mindedness where people explored or maintained such ideas.

 

Michael wrote:

"Gerald Gardner did add to whatever he had learned from the New Forest Coven elements of ceremonial magick, old grimoires and some ideas from the practices and theories of his personal friend, Alistair Crowley. This is probably where the notion that Wicca sprang from the Golden Dawn originated, as Crowley himself was once a member of the GD."

[Truth Collins]

Hi Lady Line,

 

I thought I'd give a more personal response because I find it difficult to give an academic response when H.P. Blavatsky didn't appear to be promoting dogmatic attitude of theosophical orthodoxy.  By academic I mean a response that say here is what she thought.  Since she was enigmatic it is difficult to say what she might say were she to respond to our conversation. While she was direct she also talked about blinds and was known for her mysteriousness and sense of humor.

 

I don't know much about WICCA.  What would you say it is more focused upon?  Eastern or western history, people, traditions, and ideas?  If I were to guess, which I am, I'd say western.  But I don't know which direction it's gone since.  Probably in several directions, depending upon the authors or groups promoting it.

 

In the early days of the T.S., the 1875 cycle, since it involved groups of people doing group discussions and readings there were naturally differences in taste as to what to focus upon as a group.  Some early theosophists recoiled from the idea of focusing upon eastern traditions and wanted instead to focus upon the western traditions.  I imagine that it must have been much more of a culture shock than it is today.  So apparently distant, etc...  Not like the milliseconds or seconds of delay involved in a modern phone call or internet connection.  As such, the Golden Dawn, and perhaps the H.B.of L. too, were initially focused upon the western thought and traditions but later that changed.

 

Of the theosophists I've known, ritual is not regarded by them as the main event unless their focused upon it, in which case it is.  While they may hold a sense of reverence towards such, especially if it has survived the test of time, and perhaps be involved in such, I have known few who were heavily into rituals.  Though it may be due to my age for I think that rituals have waned in popularity.  75 years ago or so they appear to have been much more popular.  None the less there is still an attitude of respect or at least good humor.  For example, the saying of an old prayer or mantra might be more commonly appreciated because it has been preserved as valuable by generations of people.  If it still resonates with individuals then the ritual will be welcomed by them.  As you see, it is a very individual matter, as theosophists are famous for disagreeing on particulars, though agreeing on the basic gist or universals.  It goes without saying that theosophists are just people who are aware of a certain range of ideas and who may hold appropriate attitudes towards such ideas. Of those I've met many display a careful sense of detachment, as in "all the world is a stage," though some are very critical of rituals.  It goes to show that you just can't tell sometimes.

 

What I'm saying is that it's up to you, of which no doubt, you're already aware.

 

As far as myself, I question if such a ritual is just people using each other, whether it's play acting, or what.  Like I said, I don't know much about it.

[Katinka Hesselink]

Since wicca didn't exist yet in Blavatsky's time (or didn't exist in the way it does today), she didn't say anything about it. However, she would consider any ritual sex (actual sex during ritual) a form of black magic. I guess that pretty much answers your question.

 

Personally what I miss in Wicca is that it doesn't take an ethical stance: you can go both ways with it. 

[Michael A. Williams]

I'm not a Wiccan, but I do know something about it and have known many people involved in it. These are ethical people. and as other "Earth Based Religion" folks, are peaceful and practice a nature worship orientation that precludes doing harm to the Earth or to others. It is unfortunate that the group loosely called "Satanists" get mixed up with legitimate Wiccans and Witches.

Of course, there are a few unhinged people in the Wiccan movement, as there are unhinged types in any spiritual or metaphysical movement, including Theosophy. These people most often get the publicity and are mistakenly seen as representing the vast majority of the movement.

No group sex or actual live ritual sex is practiced by any legitimate Wiccan I've ever heard of. Sex Magick of some form is acceptable, but to be practiced by couples in the privacy of their own homes.

As I mentioned earlier, Blavatsky and the other founders of Theosophy were very Victorian in their attitudes toward Sexuality. Put simply: in modern times, I don't think they are the best models to be looked to for guidance in matters of eroticism, either in our metaphysical/spiritual or personal lives.

Joe mentioned that Blavatsky introduced certain specific Yoga teachings in the ES to counter the the TS sister group, The Golden Dawn's, teachings and practices of ceremonial magick. It is interesting to note, that Aleister Crowley, who was as member of the GD, though not when HPB was alive, went to Southeast Asia to study Buddhist meditation and yoga under his old friend, Allen Bennett.

Bennett was an acknowledged Buddhist and yoga master, studying there for many years. Even Crowley's critics and detractors admit that under Bennett's tutelagem, he became somewhat of an adept himself in certain areas. Crowley then went back and was the one of the first, if not the first, to introduce certain yogic practices into Western Occult and Magick training and practice.

Bringing it back to Wicca, Gerald Gardner was a close friend of Crowley and it's well known he used some of Crowley's ideas and practices, and probably some from the Golden Dawn, in his brew that became Gardnerian Wicca.