The mosque in the Zero....(o la MOSCA islamica en la 'sopa' multicultural) you name it...

[EstrellaFugaz]

Let's be brave, and start a good discussion about the real meaning of tolerance - and I KNOW some people here in the site will have their skin shivered when I say this: WHAT ABOUT THE MOSQUE THEY WANT TO BUILD CLOSE TO THE 'ZERO ZONE' (or ground 'zero' for the US people)

It is still a touchy subject, some people you knewed and loved died there...but we cannot close eyes and ears, to years and years of killings in the name of 'liberty' that US has done in all over the world, I AM NOT JUSTIFYING THIS AT ANY EXTENT, any DEATH is a CRIME and as Theosophist you may know that.

But it is also TRUE that many people are not US citizens, and US has done - as a government not their people of course - a lot of problems in a lot of countries in around the globe. When is the Tolerance starts? as a very HEAVY KARMA - already been payed right now by US deaths in 9-11 and in this wars in Mideast, i would want the people here in the forum, as Theosophists, to face the touchy subject and tell me, the pro/cons of the decision Obama made, of starting the built of a Mosque there, close to where the extinct towers were.

I know that, as US citizens, will be more difficult to some of you to talk about this. Probably you lost some relative, some friend...but we cannot hide the fact, and remain discussions about lighter matters.

And in other parts of the world - like my Mexico - we have different points of view on the subject. WHEN the tolerance will start? Why? Do the younger people have 'more' tolerance' than the oldest? Do you live in a different "US" more tolerant, more narrow, what is happening??

I will attach this links to Mexican news from US that sometimes -as always - are blocked by main US media. probably you can find some good topic for discussion here....

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/ultimas/2010/08/22/manifestaciones-a-fav...

You can translate it with Google translator.


Not my intention to offend anybody. I know how hard 'political correctness' can be.

Cheers and Peace. We ALL deserve Peace. ALL.


Estrella

[Joe Fulton]

Your bravery in bringing this up is to be applauded! Whether or not someone agrees with you isn't really the point, but this is the very type of thing that Theosophists should be discussing.

HPB did not shy away from getting involved in and putting herself at personal risk for causes that she believed in. In that regards, her bravery is an example to us all.

[William Michael Ashcraft]

I'm an American and I have no problem with the building of a mosque near ground zero. In fact, I think that allowing it would be a positive sign that our nation recognizes the difference between Islam as a world faith and the violent acts done in the name of Islam by a group of individuals with hardened, apocalyptic notions of the world.

[Leila Becquer]

Strictly speaking, the project is a communal centre, not a mosque.

[Arthur E Gregory]

Today is an anniversary of the 9/11 tragedy.. a tragedy I believe for America and for Muslims as well for at least two reasons:

(1) It was a "victory" for fanatic elements not only because they were able to pull it off in an organized fashion but also because it succeeded in misrepresenting millions of Muslims who have no animus and live peaceful responsible lives..

(2) A number of innocent Muslims also perished in the attacks that day..

It's also true that we have to consider how terrorist groups form and what is their motivation.. The roots may well go back to US involvement in supporting guerrillas fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan..

US support of Israel could be a factor for some of these groups.

Karma has a role.. Recall that Karma is defined

understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in Hindu, Jain, Sikh and ..

Samsara refers to suffering resulting from the cause and effects of Karma..

We are in a world of pain and sorrow caused by the effects of injuring others whether we are aware of it or not.. The only way to eventually reduce the suffering is to first acknowledge it and then begin to take charge of our lives to reduce our own acts that injure others. We can evoke peace in our immediate surroundings and practise nonviolence in thought, word and deed..

[EstrellaFugaz]

those were not guerrilas -as guerrillas are insurgency not counterinteligence pre-made groups by CIA agents.

just to remark the point.

Estrella

[Margaret Sue]

Tolerance...by definition includes words like: 'fair', and 'sympathy', and synonym words like: 'patience', and 'forbearance' etc...
I feel those words live in my life. Yet I also use discrimination of the mind to not tolerate the wrong thing, not be patient with the wrong thing. So it becomes then a question of what is right and wrong really-doesn't it? And yet is it as simple as what is wrong for one being may be perceived as right for another? Then we get into Ethnocentrics and diversity of cultural beliefs. Yet when you put all the beliefs into one pot-which ones bubble up as more full of 'lightness'-'rightness'? Yet then, must we put all the people of those beliefs in the one pot, and stir that, and see which beings rise up as true in Lightness and rightness...yet I am not their God, and so I am not their judge. And so it really doesn't matter does it...till it affects me...or you...or our families...or our countries...

Yet, what we choose to 'align' with is what we choose to stand with. If we tolerate that which goes against life then we take a stand against life.

If there is such a cry out to build monuments in the name of beliefs-to be fair toward all beliefs-then how many beliefs-of how many peoples -of how many monuments must they build on the site of an act of war-an act against life?

Does this not seem ludicrous to anyone?

[Sabine Van Osta]

Building a mosque at the location of ground zero is of course a harmonising idea, and what about making it a centre where all religions who wish so have their little spot of practice or worship? Why not make it a place of genuine interfaith dialogue?

[Christian Vandekerkhove]

Times have come for all kinds of interfaith initiatives.
This could be a good opportunity!

[Martin Euser]

Yes! Build something that reflects all religions of the world and make it a harmonizing center.
Something refreshing, instead of all the bigotry and hysteria displayed in the media.
Why can't the religious leaders come up with such a simple and beautiful idea?

[Joe Fulton]

There are several points of view.

The "Right" believes that the effect of building the mosque/community center would be to glorify the memory of the hijackers, and to cement them as martyrs of the Islamic community. Is there any truth to that proposition?

The majority view seems to support the idea that the center is a good thing for the community and sends a message out that this is an opportunity for all faiths and communities to join together in a spirit of tolerance.

Here is the site for the Cordoba Initiative.

I would hope that the better angels of most people would side with the second alternative, however there is a part that really hopes against hope that radicalized Islam doesn't use the first alternative as some pretense to claim a twisted victory. Perhaps our resident UN watcher, Rene' Wadlow can offer some insights.

I would like for someone to contact the Cordoba Initiative and get some comments from them for this site.

Joe

[Martin Euser]

Joe:"I would like for someone to contact the Cordoba Initiative and get some comments from them for this site."

Can you define your goal in contacting the Cordoba Initiative? What do you have in mind?

[Joe Fulton]

My goal is simple. We, as a movement need to start interfacing with other groups and directly solicit their views. It would be valuable for us, and them to engage in a direct dialogue. We may learn something as a result.

Joe