Is the Hierarchy for real? I pretty much follow the line of theosopy->AY->my current spiritual state, accepting the main and mutual tenets of it. (Karma, Reincarnation), but I have certain reservation of the existence of the "invisible knights", the "puppet masters". For I have not felt their presence.
My AY teacher explained the concept of Hierarchy to me in a most simplistic terms. "There are of those who are higher than us", - makes sense, right? But does that mean that they are here among us and driving things invisibly. Things are quite fouled up all over the world.
Do you believe in this Hierarchy? Have you ever felt their presence? In real or in dreams?
I do not believe in this heirarchy. Like you, I wonder if it is so good then why aren't things much better than what they are?
The only purpose such a concept serves, and this can be applied to any great figure, whether it's Jesus, Buddha or even a father in the eyes of a small child, is that the ideal is something we can aspire to.
Otherwise it's pretty much a waste of time. Look at the messages that come from the mouthpieces. For the most part they are pretty lame and not well thought out. Some are positively dangerous in that people are inspired to do very bad things by the voices in their heads.
If you don't believe in the Hierarchy, what about the Mahatmas and all that? I acknowledge that I'm no HPB scholar, but I kind of thought those were some of the same characters, no disrespect intended. (To you or to the "characters"!) :-)
I believe they are there. I sure hope they are.
Yes I believe in the Hierarch and have reason to to do so.we have freewill and as they say in the US are allowed to "mess up"
Yes, the wise brothers are here. I know for sure, and the fact that I cannot prove it to anyone does not disturb me at all. I do dislike the use of the word "hierarchy" and I don't use it. This word comes from ancient times and its use by modern mindsets is, at least, problematic...
They are not at all "puppet masters". I do disagree with the word your AY teacher used. It is not about highness, but -at human level- about the broadness of mind needed to understand what life is about and the will to serve life's evolution.
It's not that they are above watching but below, sustaining. There's a big difference between "taking care" and "controlling"...
This world is undergoing a great acceleration and its side effect is nowadays turmoil . It's a healing crisis, a kind of fever that is burning the cloak of ignorance that covers the true nature of humanity. Soon it'll be over, and the wise brothers will work openly again in everyday's world.
... and of course I may be wrong, it's just that I felt like writing as I see it. Warm blessings, dear friends!!!
...let me follow up a bit. The word "Hierarchy" is very 1920's-30's, perhaps this is because I have moved on spiritually speaking. There is a Pravda article on Shambala. While I am a skeptic of Hierarchy concept I am a believer of extraterrestrials and others (in spirit) from different worlds, have incarnated to Human forms. So maybe there are the same. I am a great fan of HPB and the Mahatma letters.....I guess perhaps since I do not "believe" in the Hierarchy - they are not for me to experience firsthand.
Yes there is an Agni Yoga book called "Hierarchy" from 1931
Quote" Hierarchy is not coercion, it is the law of the Universe.It is not a threat, but the call of the heart and a fiery admonition directing toward the General Good"
Hi, Andrasnm ;-)
Yes, the word "hierarchy" was used in the Agni Yoga books (and with very good reason), but it is of Greek origin, as many words are. It's composed by "hieros", holy and "arche", principle. Do people repeating the word usually know the very good reasons behind the word or use it to mean just "my own ideal of what's best and most"?
Is anything still considered "holy" as it was, today?
"Hierarchy concepts" are usually a misunderstanding, to say it in gentle words, so skepticism is good. It's not about believing, it was when I became a disbeliever and started to think and act that I started to know. It's about living ethics. This means working on the brain until it is a useful expression tool for that which dwells within the Heart. I cannot find any better words to say it.
the spiritual over-ruling of this planet is laissez-faire at best. Or, it is a tool as in many religions to form a governing body within a sect to maintain a divinely-decreed control.
so. No. I do not see any well coordinated manifestations to help further the overall (living) race.
Hi Jon - trying hard to find disagreement here (sigh). However:
jon: "Think in terms of expansiveness of consciousness. Use the physical layout of planets, stars, galaxies, etc., as analogous, but replace the physical bodies with the idea of centers of consciousness - a collection of centers around a greater center, and that center along with others around an even greater center, etc.."
The question is - are they all aware of each other - ? my opinion is No. i.e. just independent people doing independent things. (Sometimes coordinated but more likely by happenstance). Higher Minds then implies higher focus on humanity along with action.. more a natural human phenomenon. I'll easily believe that. Those do exist.
If they are all supposedly acting in in a coordinated manner... I will stick to my laissez-faire opinion. <g> Wasn't it Will Rogers (?not sure?) that said he did not belong to an organized political party. He was a Democrat. (close I hope). (ok - a USA politics joke).
So there are two ideas floating about. The first revolves around the idea of the existence of humans among us who are evolved, much as the theosophical co. line proposes. I stated my opinion earlier and won't revisit it again. The second, which Jon makes good reference to involves people of wisdom.
We all can agree that each of us has various capacities, and to some extent, in some certain ways we are all geniuses. Just as there are those skilled at various sciences, etc. there are those who are skilled in understanding the human being. I'm not talking about knowing in the terms of the usual yapping about bodies, planes, etc. It's a knowledge of what makes other people tick. All of us have seen this at work at least once in our lives...that is if we had a mother or we are a mother. On an individual level it is called "mother-wit". You know what the kids are up to before they know. Ok. That frames the comments that follow.
Similarly there are people who are very wise in the same way in regards to large number of people, and in various venues, whether it be local, across a region or globally, and being wise in one way doesn't necessarily guarantee or imply wisdom in the other areas. There are people who run entire countries who can't get along with their next door neighbor.
There are individuals pop up in history from time to time and they are known as "great".
That being said, the reason we study the stuff that we do is to understand the human being and our place in the universe so that we can be useful in the ways mentioned above. So when others see conflict we see unity, thus clearing the way for solutions to problems previously thought intractible.
This is one example of the promise that theosophy holds out...only if we can stop obsessing over that which serves no purpose. So that being said, it is far more important in my book to create situations for people where they can learn and share with others than to waste my time worrying whether or not there is a master lurking out there somewhere. They may or may not exist, but for me, it's not a matter of playing Pascal's wager. If the right things are learned and the right action taken, someone will appear...or not.
You'll not swim alone, Jon! ;-)
Let's start stating that you and me seem to have quite different ideas on what an "human being" is, just to know where we are. ;-)
But yes! it's this galaxy- star- planet... but the important idea as I understand it is that we don't need to "replace" because galaxy, star and planet are conscious beings, with their intelligence and will according to their size. And the will of the planet is to make an humanity evolve to play a part, an important role within the ecosystem.
The interesting point is that an human being can reach a real understanding of what's life about in this planet and so become an intelligent co-worker of life force in this world. Those who understand something of the will of the planet can work accordingly. Those who understand so much that keeping their body alive for centuries or milennia is a good investment for the planet because they focus forces that help mental development in humanity are often called "Masters of Wisdom", "Senior members of the Hierarchy" etc...
In the planet evolution, humanity is both the problem and the solution, and this planet is not a perfect one, so the struggle has been, and is still, great. The wise people cannot and don't will to change the world or humanity, but it is humanity itself that is changing with inceasing speed since about 300 years ago, isn't it?
I don't think that the wise people are beyond humanity but within humanity. Now they can act as teachers and not as religious leaders because humanity's mindset has changed.