On Matter and Evolutionary Transformation

[Lori Tompkins]

A friend recently passed on and invited inquiry on the following comments made by the Mother on matter and transformation, elaborating on the 6 June 1962 statement she made to Satprem, ‘If matter where changeable, it would have changed LONG ago.’ It reminds me of the gap between what our minds think or imagine constitutes real change and spiritual transformation, and what actually constitutes real change and spiritual transformation. In Sri Aurobindo's vision of evolution towards the 'Life Divine', new stages of evolution are a higher organization of the previous one. Life initiated a new organization and potential of Matter. Mind initiated a new organization and potential of Life and Matter. And in the next phase, Spirit initiates a new 'Supermental' organization and potential of Mind, Life and Matter.

To read the Mother's comment's go to Circumsolatious.

Also In trying to find a category below, I am stumped. There is no category for Yoga, or Spirituality.  Spirituality and Religion are not the same thing.

[Mark Worthington]

So, we have unchangeable matter, and life, mind, and then spirit have to work, all together, but not change each other for Divine evolution. Is this correct?

Makes me think however,  really the only reality, in this multitude of mayas, is perhaps different levels of consciousness, matter included. Thanks.

[Lori Tompkins]

Hi Mark, I think where the Mother was going with that thought about matter not being the thing that changes, was that it is the relationship ... the inter-relations between things that undergoes some sort of evolution ... like matter, life, and mind are being increasingly coordinated/harmonized to the tune of the soul or spirit (individually and collectively). So order and harmony becomes the norm rather than disorder and disharmony.  Regarding the word 'maya'. Am never sure what people mean when they use this word. It means 'measure' (based on Ma, the Sanskrit base of words such as mother, matter, mass, math....) ... and eventually came to mean 'illusion' After studying Sri Aurobindo and the Mother and Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, I am in agreement with them that it is an epic mistake (though common in our modern era) to consider matter and anything that can be measured, an illusion. Sri Aurobindo discusses this as the 'error of the Buddha', and as a 'revolt of Spirit against Matter'. Ideally Matter is known as not something different from Spirit. Perhaps that is what you are getting at as well ... that consciousness and matter ARE intimately related. Here are some links discussing these issues:

 

• The Revolt of Spirit Against Matter: a Two-Thousand-Year-Old Negati...
• The Error of the Buddha by Robert E. Wilkinson
• Sri Aurobindo and the Secret History of the World

 

'All forms of spiritual thought and practice that have served to heighten the rift between the two poles of spirit and matter must, at this time, give way to the new creation...'
-- Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, The Gnostic Circle (1975)

 

***

 

'Knowledge is not complete if it merely shows us how to get away from relation to that which is beyond relations, from personality to impersonality, from multiplicity to featureless unity. It must give us also that key, that secret of the whole play of relations, the whole variation of multiplicity, the whole clash and interaction of personalities for which cosmic existence is seeking. And knowledge is still incomplete if it gives us only an idea and cannot verify it in experience; we seek the key, the secret order that we may govern the phenomenon by the reality it represents, heal its discords by the hidden principle of concord and unification behind them and arrive from the converging and diverging effort of the world to the harmony of its fulfilment. Not merely peace, but fulfilment is what the heart of the world is seeking and what a perfect and effective self-knowledge must give to it; peace can only be the eternal support, the infinite condition, the natural atmosphere of self-fulfilment.'
- Sri Aurobindo, A Synthesis of Yoga

 

[Mark Worthington]

Thank-you 360lotus for your great informative reply. I will read and think carefully on this. I was referring to illusion for 'maya' and I appreciate your advising me on its meaning. One of the reasons why I like Sri A. and Mother's teaching is that they do not dismiss this world as just illusion, like most other teachings. I believe this is so but I still have a long way to go before understanding what actually maybe illusion and what is not illusion but in the Ignorance state. Thank-you again.
360lotus said:

Hi Mark, I think where the Mother was going with that thought about matter not being the thing that changes, was that it is the relationship ... the inter-relations between things that undergoes some sort of evolution ... like matter, life, and mind are being increasingly coordinated/harmonized to the tune of the soul or spirit (individually and collectively). So order and harmony becomes the norm rather than disorder and disharmony.  Regarding the word 'maya'. Am never sure what people mean when they use this word. It means 'measure' (based on Ma, the Sanskrit base of words such as mother, matter, mass, math....) ... and eventually came to mean 'illusion' After studying Sri Aurobindo and the Mother and Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, I am in agreement with them that it is an epic mistake (though common in our modern era) to consider matter and anything that can be measured, an illusion. Sri Aurobindo discusses this as the 'error of the Buddha', and as a 'revolt of Spirit against Matter'. Ideally Matter is known as not something different from Spirit. Perhaps that is what you are getting at as well ... that consciousness and matter ARE intimately related. Here are some links discussing these issues:

 

• The Revolt of Spirit Against Matter: a Two-Thousand-Year-Old Negati...
• The Error of the Buddha by Robert E. Wilkinson
• Sri Aurobindo and the Secret History of the World

 

'All forms of spiritual thought and practice that have served to heighten the rift between the two poles of spirit and matter must, at this time, give way to the new creation...'
-- Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, The Gnostic Circle (1975)

 

***

 

'Knowledge is not complete if it merely shows us how to get away from relation to that which is beyond relations, from personality to impersonality, from multiplicity to featureless unity. It must give us also that key, that secret of the whole play of relations, the whole variation of multiplicity, the whole clash and interaction of personalities for which cosmic existence is seeking. And knowledge is still incomplete if it gives us only an idea and cannot verify it in experience; we seek the key, the secret order that we may govern the phenomenon by the reality it represents, heal its discords by the hidden principle of concord and unification behind them and arrive from the converging and diverging effort of the world to the harmony of its fulfilment. Not merely peace, but fulfilment is what the heart of the world is seeking and what a perfect and effective self-knowledge must give to it; peace can only be the eternal support, the infinite condition, the natural atmosphere of self-fulfilment.'
- Sri Aurobindo, A Synthesis of Yoga

 

[Yannick Berghmans]

This perfectly demonstrates the view of the  world-renowned physicist David Bohm. I've just come upon his writings recently so I can't give an extensive elaboration, but it the main view he postulates is that matter and consciousness are part of the undivided whole that the universe is. The divisions we see are mental constructions, that is the illusion.

I strongly recommend you examine his ideas.

Lori Tompkins said:

Hi Mark, I think where the Mother was going with that thought about matter not being the thing that changes, was that it is the relationship ... the inter-relations between things that undergoes some sort of evolution ... like matter, life, and mind are being increasingly coordinated/harmonized to the tune of the soul or spirit (individually and collectively). So order and harmony becomes the norm rather than disorder and disharmony.  Regarding the word 'maya'. Am never sure what people mean when they use this word. It means 'measure' (based on Ma, the Sanskrit base of words such as mother, matter, mass, math....) ... and eventually came to mean 'illusion' After studying Sri Aurobindo and the Mother and Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, I am in agreement with them that it is an epic mistake (though common in our modern era) to consider matter and anything that can be measured, an illusion. Sri Aurobindo discusses this as the 'error of the Buddha', and as a 'revolt of Spirit against Matter'. Ideally Matter is known as not something different from Spirit. Perhaps that is what you are getting at as well ... that consciousness and matter ARE intimately related. Here are some links discussing these issues:

 

• The Revolt of Spirit Against Matter: a Two-Thousand-Year-Old Negati...
• The Error of the Buddha by Robert E. Wilkinson
• Sri Aurobindo and the Secret History of the World

 

'All forms of spiritual thought and practice that have served to heighten the rift between the two poles of spirit and matter must, at this time, give way to the new creation...'
-- Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, The Gnostic Circle (1975)

 

***

 

'Knowledge is not complete if it merely shows us how to get away from relation to that which is beyond relations, from personality to impersonality, from multiplicity to featureless unity. It must give us also that key, that secret of the whole play of relations, the whole variation of multiplicity, the whole clash and interaction of personalities for which cosmic existence is seeking. And knowledge is still incomplete if it gives us only an idea and cannot verify it in experience; we seek the key, the secret order that we may govern the phenomenon by the reality it represents, heal its discords by the hidden principle of concord and unification behind them and arrive from the converging and diverging effort of the world to the harmony of its fulfilment. Not merely peace, but fulfilment is what the heart of the world is seeking and what a perfect and effective self-knowledge must give to it; peace can only be the eternal support, the infinite condition, the natural atmosphere of self-fulfilment.'
- Sri Aurobindo, A Synthesis of Yoga

 

[Mark Worthington]

Sorry Yannick for responding so late to your statement of interest with David Bohm.

I too have read his  Implicate Order/Explicative Order theories with much interest. His contemporary American physics community did not support him much and he had to take up residence elsewhere. His name and theories will be redeemed in the future however, I believe. His implicate/explicate orders are a big step forward to our understanding of the different states of manesfestaion and premanesfestations of the material worlds. Could also be the missing link between calculations of relativity (macro gravity states) and micro quantum states.  Please read on and come back with your thoughts on this. Thanks

[Lori Tompkins]

Thanks Ian.  I am happy to be alerted about such web site glitches. Thank you. I also see missing picture on the first link, which I will also fix.

am also glad someone is reading these things!