How Many Different Types of Reincarnation Exist? - Theosophy.Net2024-03-29T13:55:43Zhttps://theosophy.net/forum/topics/how-many-different-types-of-reincarnation-exist?commentId=3055387%3AComment%3A76629&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noReincarnation or any form of…tag:theosophy.net,2011-09-15:3055387:Comment:791202011-09-15T05:14:13.166ZFrancis Xavierhttps://theosophy.net/profile/FrancisXavier
<p>Reincarnation or any form of enlightenment or afterlife is a big topic with me. I try to look at this with facts and take into account the myriad of religions world wide. In order to understand a concept fully you need to look at it from a lot of angles. The idea of an afterlife, I feel, is human nature's way of dealing with the permanence of death. In Buddhism one strives to enlighten themselves through many reincarnations of life so that one can experience all there is in life. That…</p>
<p>Reincarnation or any form of enlightenment or afterlife is a big topic with me. I try to look at this with facts and take into account the myriad of religions world wide. In order to understand a concept fully you need to look at it from a lot of angles. The idea of an afterlife, I feel, is human nature's way of dealing with the permanence of death. In Buddhism one strives to enlighten themselves through many reincarnations of life so that one can experience all there is in life. That is putting it simply without getting into a full page article on the intricacies of Enlightenment. In Christianity, one believes they go to heaven or hell based on their actions in life. Death, whether we like it or not, is a permanent event that will happen in our life (unless trans-humanism becomes relevant in the near future). Humans are built on a will to survive and most people will do what they need to in order to survive. Look at high crime areas in cities, although there are bad deed occurring, people are doing what they feel they need to in order to sustain their life. It may mean mugging people to get money for food or stealing from stores, etc. This will to survive has caused humanity to undergo a compensation mechanism with the fact that we will die. Buddhism tells us that one should be prepared for this event and remove attachments in our life. It has a very focused goal of helping people think outside of this genetic device that we have created and embrace death in a more practical perspective. </p>
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<p>The truth of the matter is no one knows if even such a thing exists. You can have all the faith in the world but faith doesn't prove reality. Faith is a mechanism to provide hope in a world that we live in. In reality at one point we were all atoms floating in space after a massive star death. Now we possess this form. I think people should focus more on their consciousness and how to make an impact on the world they are in NOW, rather than racing to prepare for one they can not confirm exists at all. </p> Certainly, the immune repress…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-28:3055387:Comment:764452011-08-28T17:01:23.327ZMichael A. Williamshttps://theosophy.net/profile/MichaelAWilliams
<p>Certainly, the immune repressing drugs given in transplant cases would elicit quite a few pronounced side effects. It may well be extremely difficult to separate those variables in any study done on transplant recipients.</p>
<p>In regards to my contention, and others, that it is the etheric body in the transplant tissue that would be influencing the recipient, the etheric body dissipates from the physical after bodily death. This dissipation rate probably varies from individual to…</p>
<p>Certainly, the immune repressing drugs given in transplant cases would elicit quite a few pronounced side effects. It may well be extremely difficult to separate those variables in any study done on transplant recipients.</p>
<p>In regards to my contention, and others, that it is the etheric body in the transplant tissue that would be influencing the recipient, the etheric body dissipates from the physical after bodily death. This dissipation rate probably varies from individual to individual, depending on many factors. Most likely, in most cases the etheric is absent or barely remaining at the time of transplant, so these cases would not be effected by it. It is in the rare cases where the etheric remains in substantial amounts that effects would occur in the recipient.</p>
<p>I don't know what the psychical research in this field says, but I doubt if there is much at all. Many people mistakenly think that any kind of scientific study, paranormal or regular, can be started at the drop of a hat. That's far from the truth of the matter.</p>
<p>Research costs money, big money nowadays. Much politicking, and in some case graft and bribery, goes into obtaining research money. And, the materialists control most of the money available, through government or private foundations. The parapsychologists and psychic research vie for the rest.</p>
<p>Some day this may change for the better and there will be a full, long term, solid study done on transplant donors and recipients by our most talented parapsychologists.</p>
<p> </p> Thanks Martin.
Organ transp…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-28:3055387:Comment:764412011-08-28T11:17:12.668ZCapt. Anand Kumarhttps://theosophy.net/profile/CaptAnandKumar
<p>Thanks Martin.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Organ transplants became feasible after Immuno Suppressive drugs (current Trade Name - Cyclosporin in India, in other countries it may be different) came into being. These drugs reduce the effects of the immune system of the body so that it does not reject the foreign organ. But the surgery increases the chances of infection in an artificially weakened immune system, so a very strong dose of anti-biotics is maintained for extended periods to ensure transplant…</p>
<p>Thanks Martin.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Organ transplants became feasible after Immuno Suppressive drugs (current Trade Name - Cyclosporin in India, in other countries it may be different) came into being. These drugs reduce the effects of the immune system of the body so that it does not reject the foreign organ. But the surgery increases the chances of infection in an artificially weakened immune system, so a very strong dose of anti-biotics is maintained for extended periods to ensure transplant is successful. It is a very complex procedure. Each of the drugs have severe side effects and their combined effect cannot be evaluated as it varies with each person. After transplant, the physicians try to ensure that the biochemistry of the body which allowed the organ to fail, does not happen again and prescribe more medication together with lifestyle management adjustments. All of this have grave psychological aspects. Add the extended stay in Hospital with together other people in a state of depression and the free time to contemplate on events in life.Certain changes in psychology of the eprson is expected and natural. For example for a person who has been very active in life, has to slow down his pace. And if he learns that the transplant came from a lazy person which could be pure coincidence, it will be easy to conclude for him that it is due to a transplanted organ. This is based on a real story.</p>
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<p>Many of the drugs used in the treatment of cancer have severe side effects of producing the symptom of depression and other psychological disorders but those are not listed. Treating physicians know this from experience but will not tell. This is another story. I am looking for a person who received organ from a very active person like an athlete or a politician and became like him.</p>
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<p>I confess that I do not understand the cause and consequence based karma theory very well. But for those who believe in it it would be logical to <strong><em>assume </em></strong>that it is the effect of good karma which has made the continuation of life possible through transplant.</p>
<p> </p> Capt. Anand Kumar:
"I have wo…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-28:3055387:Comment:766292011-08-28T10:25:56.170ZMartin Euserhttps://theosophy.net/profile/MartinEuser
<p>Capt. Anand Kumar:</p>
<p>"I have worked with at least five Liver Cancer patients who got their transplant and I did not notice any chnage in their behaviour or psychology after the transplant."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It might be good to know that there is anecdotal evidence of patients who got an organ transplant whose preferences for food and even for music changed noticeably after the transplant, precisely in accordance with the preferences of the deceased person whose organ was donated. That…</p>
<p>Capt. Anand Kumar:</p>
<p>"I have worked with at least five Liver Cancer patients who got their transplant and I did not notice any chnage in their behaviour or psychology after the transplant."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It might be good to know that there is anecdotal evidence of patients who got an organ transplant whose preferences for food and even for music changed noticeably after the transplant, precisely in accordance with the preferences of the deceased person whose organ was donated. That makes one wonder about memories being stored or attached to organs.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>"If one really believes in Karma theory, then it should be understood that it is the good Karma of the affected person which is permitting the continuation of life through organ transplant. That cannot be negative,"</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>That is quite a statement, or rather, an opinion. Is it really good karma? Who can tell? What is the effect of the affected person on the transplanted organ? There are many ethical questions pertaining to transplants that are simply evaded, ignored, etc. That is to be expected in a thoroughly materialistic society. The spiritual side of things are taboo.</em></p>
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Thanks Peter. Giving up des…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-28:3055387:Comment:765292011-08-28T02:57:04.210ZCapt. Anand Kumarhttps://theosophy.net/profile/CaptAnandKumar
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks Peter. Giving up desire is one thing. It is difficult but not that difficult. Introducing change into lives of millions is another matter.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Change is motion. Motion is Karma.</p>
<p>Gautam Budha and Sri Krishna (Bhagvad Gita) are speaking the same language.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks Peter. Giving up desire is one thing. It is difficult but not that difficult. Introducing change into lives of millions is another matter.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Change is motion. Motion is Karma.</p>
<p>Gautam Budha and Sri Krishna (Bhagvad Gita) are speaking the same language.</p> Regarding Shiva Peter, once a…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-28:3055387:Comment:765272011-08-28T02:03:37.909ZCapt. Anand Kumarhttps://theosophy.net/profile/CaptAnandKumar
<p>Regarding Shiva Peter, once again your question is directed towads a most ignorant person. All I can say that please do not look for Shiva in images.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Noted theosophist IK Taimni had written a brilliant modern day explanation of <strong>Shiv Sutra (</strong>amongst the primary texts on Shiva from Kashmir branch of Shaivism)<strong> </strong>explaining the Physics as well as the metaphysics. If I can find an electronic copy, I will send you. It is no more than hundred pages and…</p>
<p>Regarding Shiva Peter, once again your question is directed towads a most ignorant person. All I can say that please do not look for Shiva in images.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Noted theosophist IK Taimni had written a brilliant modern day explanation of <strong>Shiv Sutra (</strong>amongst the primary texts on Shiva from Kashmir branch of Shaivism)<strong> </strong>explaining the Physics as well as the metaphysics. If I can find an electronic copy, I will send you. It is no more than hundred pages and one can finish it in one sitting.</p> Hi, Peter. I don't have time…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-27:3055387:Comment:764232011-08-27T17:45:37.870ZMichael A. Williamshttps://theosophy.net/profile/MichaelAWilliams
<p>Hi, Peter. I don't have time for a lengthy reply to comments and questions. As for Buddhism and Atheism, it is no secret, as I pointed out, that there are numerous branches, sub-branches, sects and schools of thought in it, as in Christianity. I've read about some atheists who want some grounding for ethical behavior and for meditation practices to quiet the mind, joining the extreme rationalist sects of Buddhism who promulgate "no soul, no God(outer or inner), question karma and…</p>
<p>Hi, Peter. I don't have time for a lengthy reply to comments and questions. As for Buddhism and Atheism, it is no secret, as I pointed out, that there are numerous branches, sub-branches, sects and schools of thought in it, as in Christianity. I've read about some atheists who want some grounding for ethical behavior and for meditation practices to quiet the mind, joining the extreme rationalist sects of Buddhism who promulgate "no soul, no God(outer or inner), question karma and reincarnation, adhere to materialist science, but do no harm to others and respect life." I'm not a Buddhist nor a scholar on these matters, so I wouldn't know the names of these particular branches of Buddhism.</p>
<p>I'm not so sure about the "desire causing suffering" deal. Life itself is "Desire." Of course, it depends on how you define "desire." If it means every short term whim or pleasure seeking, that's one thing, but if you speaking of a "Life purpose" and creative impulses, that's another. It seems to me that psychological fear causes more suffering than desiring. Of course, if one's desires are of a destructive nature, then that will inevitably lead to a boomerang destructive effect back on one's self at some point. It's an involved subject and these are some of my basic views on it.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I think Buddhism has much to offer the Western metaphysical student. Mostly in the area of meditation and deep trance practices, as in Tibetan Buddhism. For some Westerners, the East is their right Life path, but for most, the Western esoteric approaches are where they should be concentrating. Almost everyone I know who was great guns on the East back in the 60's and 70's are now into some branch of Hermeticism.</p>
<p>Your short illness, Peter, must have temporarily effected your short term memory. You sent me a pdf of your"Shadows and Mist" and I wrote back I liked it. It seems to me that your "out-of-body" Astral experience you recount in it should have erased all doubt that your consciousness will survive the death of your body. I wouldn't worry about any "desire" to survive "death," for you will, desire it or not!</p>
<p>I'm sorry, I don't have time to respond on the rest of your comments and quotes. Yes, you're right about the Kabbalah and it's wisdom. You're much more advanced in your studies of that than I am. That and the Hermetica are certainly among the pillars of the Western metaphysical tradition.</p>
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<p><br/>
<cite>Peter O'Lalor said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/how-many-different-types-of-reincarnation-exist?xg_source=activity&id=3055387%3ATopic%3A75179&page=2#3055387Comment76614"><div><p>Dear Michael,</p>
<p> May I ask about your statement that... <em>"Some branches of Buddhism in the hyper-rational tradition are barely distinguishable from Atheism?"</em></p>
<p> I ask this because I'm wondering are we all God - all at once? What about Buddha's warning that Desire creates suffering? Is my desire to survive my death, the same kind of desire. Is that why just maybe death has always been a constant companion. Why I'm drawn not to the dieing but many who would eventually die after a long friendship with whom I shared hope of realizing their faith. Maybe that's my problem!!!!!! </p>
<p> I understood that traditional Buddhism was concerned with "Liberation." I sought it in India. It was offered and I declined. Not a wasted trip though. You can read about it in <em>Shrouded in Mist</em> and I'll be happy to send you a pdf file of it at your request. </p>
<p> When you wrote: <em>"It is my understanding that when Buddhists of most schools speak of reincarnation, they point to karma that reincarnates,"</em> I was at a loss but with a little thought: NO I'm still confused. </p>
<p> On the other hand; it was my impression that when I explored Buddhism; it seemed to me and please correct me if I'm mislead, but isn't Buddhism for an individual's sake? Whereas Gautama Buddha was not interested in "Self" but was a Mahayana Buddhist, who worked for the Liberation of humanity, as all Mahayana Buddhists ought to do? Or am I mistaken? </p>
<ul>
<li> I liked very much when you wrote: ... <em>it is not a separate "entity," as such, that reincarnates (into wherever), but an Individualized Ray of Awareness("Soul" if you like) from [a] Source that reincarnates or transits from world to world and realm to realm. Obviously, it is immortal.</em> </li>
<li>Are we talking collective consciousness? If we are, we can also find it in the Path on the Way of Return, (OSW: <em>The Sword and the Serpent</em>) or the Qabala's Tree of Life and its creation which was the light that came from the Spirit of God[head], Eventually descending into matter the further from God[Head] one gets. </li>
<li>To many a hierophant in Egypt: Isis (that very Spirit), is every <strong>thing,</strong> (Hi Joe, :-)), that ever was, is, or shall be." Subsequently matter grew upon spirit and created through ageless Aeons of reincarnation, collective races of beings from Angels who met with the Daughters of Men and found them Fair. (Please excuse the lack of citation. or what of "... the "Coats of Skin inherited from the Earthly Adam and Eve." upon the expulsion <em>... And he drove out Man; and he set the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword, toward the east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life.</em> Gen: 3:24</li>
<li>and as one of my poems suggest: </li>
<li>...and so the Race of Eve or Isis,</li>
<li> survives their material conscious crisis,</li>
<li>and shapes their world to suit their mind,</li>
<li>without regard for their Heavenly kind ... </li>
</ul>
I'm trying to get caught up and I ought to say Good Night or Good Morning and gather my own thoughts. I am beyond fatigue however, and Theosophy, theosophy.net and its members are the inspiration and community I had hoped for decades ago. Thank you for your time.. I usually edit but things are getting blurry. <br/>
<p> </p>
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</blockquote> Thank You Peter. The question…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-27:3055387:Comment:765142011-08-27T03:24:10.099ZCapt. Anand Kumarhttps://theosophy.net/profile/CaptAnandKumar
<p>Thank You Peter. The question is indeed tough. In spite of varying claims, few in Hinduism have been able to explain the deep principles involved in the popular term KARMA. I certainly do not know much about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yet, there are two things one can consider. There is a story of Valmiki, a deeply revered sage, authour of original Ramayana and one of the crest jewels of Indian Philosophy - The Yoga Vasishtha. Legend has it that before he became a sage, he was a highway robber.…</p>
<p>Thank You Peter. The question is indeed tough. In spite of varying claims, few in Hinduism have been able to explain the deep principles involved in the popular term KARMA. I certainly do not know much about it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yet, there are two things one can consider. There is a story of Valmiki, a deeply revered sage, authour of original Ramayana and one of the crest jewels of Indian Philosophy - The Yoga Vasishtha. Legend has it that before he became a sage, he was a highway robber. Under the influence of some advice, one day he asked his wife and chldren that since all of you enjoy the fruits of my robbery and live a good life, will you share my time in hell too. Their reply was negative. This turned him around and he took to worshipping of Ram and eventually evolved into a sage. The moral of the story being that under no circumstances, can Karma be shared.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The other point emanates from the fact that the Realism of Hinduism describes Dharma as the principle which causes motion and Karma as the motion itself. Both are treated as matter, substance (take your pick as the Sanskrit word Dravya is untranslatable into English) and elements which form the manifested universe together with other elements. Yoga Vasishtha postulates Mind Creates Universe. One aspect of this is that there is a universe for every soul (Sanskrit ATMAA) and that universe manifests by the combination of the elements unique to that soul. Atmaa itself is treated as matter, or substance.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The best person to answer these questions is David Reigle who understands these things. Yet considering the above, I should have no fear in getting the transplant done. I have worked with at least five Liver Cancer patients who got their transplant and I did not notice any chnage in their behaviour or psychology after the transplant. What happens usually is that the affected person, for medical reasons and to maintain good health has to undertake a number of lifestyle chnages post transplant and that results in altered behaviour or psychology. Those looking for hidden hand behind everything claim that it is Karma being transferred. If one really believes in Karma theory, then it should be understood that it is the good Karma of the affected person which is permitting the continuation of life through organ transplant. That cannot be negative.</p> Frankly, Joe, with all due re…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-27:3055387:Comment:767092011-08-27T02:52:20.028ZMichael A. Williamshttps://theosophy.net/profile/MichaelAWilliams
<p>Frankly, Joe, with all due respects, I don't think, in general, that the Buddhists have any "interesting ideas" on reincarnation. In point of fact, you just undermined the whole thing by saying there is no "specific entity" that reincarnates, implying there is no reincarnation at all. Most people who have investigated the spiritual philosophies of East and West for any length of time know the Buddhist concept of "no self," therefor "no self" to reincarnate.</p>
<p>As you well know, but…</p>
<p>Frankly, Joe, with all due respects, I don't think, in general, that the Buddhists have any "interesting ideas" on reincarnation. In point of fact, you just undermined the whole thing by saying there is no "specific entity" that reincarnates, implying there is no reincarnation at all. Most people who have investigated the spiritual philosophies of East and West for any length of time know the Buddhist concept of "no self," therefor "no self" to reincarnate.</p>
<p>As you well know, but others here may not, Buddhism has as many branches and "schools of thought" as does Christianity, maybe more. Some branches of Buddhism in the hyper-rational tradition are barely distinguishable from Atheism. Certainly, though, the Tibetan tradition has quite a "to-do" about reincarnation, and I think some other branches do, too.</p>
<p>It is my understanding that when Buddhists of most schools speak of reincarnation, they point to karma that reincarnates, not any enduring "self."</p>
<p>There's a different angle on this in the West, in some metaphysical circles. Language is inadequate to fully explain and express this, but it is not a separate "entity," as such, that reincarnates(into wherever), but an Individualized Ray of Awareness("Soul" if you like) from Source that reincarnates or transits from world to world and realm to realm. Obviously, it is immortal.</p>
<p>Others in the Western esoteric traditions may use other terms and similes to express this.</p>
<p> </p> H
Hi, Peter, and I, also, say…tag:theosophy.net,2011-08-26:3055387:Comment:763232011-08-26T03:39:20.257ZMichael A. Williamshttps://theosophy.net/profile/MichaelAWilliams
<p>H</p>
<p>Hi, Peter, and I, also, say it is good to see you back here.</p>
<p>As for your questions, I've run across references to some psychical research being done into the effects of transplants on the recipients behavior. It's a new field in this area, and obviously laughed at by conventional medicine, which is founded on scientific materialism. Evidently, there are a number of cases where a person with a transplanted organ has had strange behavior and thoughts which were totally out of…</p>
<p>H</p>
<p>Hi, Peter, and I, also, say it is good to see you back here.</p>
<p>As for your questions, I've run across references to some psychical research being done into the effects of transplants on the recipients behavior. It's a new field in this area, and obviously laughed at by conventional medicine, which is founded on scientific materialism. Evidently, there are a number of cases where a person with a transplanted organ has had strange behavior and thoughts which were totally out of character for them up to then.(It would seem blood transfusions would fall under this also) I'm sorry I can't remember the researchers names, but I'm sure I'll run across them again and will get back to you with names and contact info.</p>
<p>Some will try to explain this via DNA and whatnot. I'm personally with the group that says it is a remnant of the etheric body of the donor that is affecting the etheric body/field of the recipient. I would suggest looking to a psychic healing, by someone verified and the real deal. How and where, I can't say off hand, but with due diligence, they can be found.</p>